Conflicts of interest

No I don't think that is true, Jon .. and most certainly not ethical. If the seller is an uneducated member of the Public and asks the dealer 10 quid for an item, and that dealer knows fine well the item is worth 5000, then this would be fraud by deception. Easy to prove under law, from the subsequent price for which that dealer sold or passed the item. There is of course the question 'what is a fair profit' but this is something else all together.

The counter argument can sometimes be ... 'well I didn't know what is was REALLY worth when I was buying it' .. I think that is a cop-out. They damn well knew when they sold the item they undervalued, so again, IMO, professional conduct on behalf of the dealer should play its part. The law isn't always the total ass, in such cases the law will look at the dealer's selling price and judgment, of honest ignorance or fraud, will be based upon the dealer's selling price, and in reality the dealer may well find he has to pay the difference, allowing for a 'fair profit.'

There has been many well publicized cases (in the UK) when dealers have been prosecuted for paying undervalue to Joe Public, and not merely prosecuted under the office of Fair Trading but by direct police action and the DPP.

We the dealer are supposed to be professional at what we do, no other professional body would get away with such deception, misinformation, or professional misconduct, why the hell should the antiques trade be any different?

I am afraid Jon, the conduct, as you suggest above, is one of the things that gives this trade a bad name, and in some ways it forces Joe Public into this annoying habit of seeking prices from every dealer and playing one dealer against the other. I see no reason whatsoever, that the dealer can not bid the uneducated Joe Public a fair price, that they the dealer, would bid at auction or a price that they would normally be prepared to offer or pay within the trade itself to another dealer.

Truth be told, many times it's a case that the buying dealer doesn't know ass from elbow, doesn't know what to bid in the first place and is merely looking a lead in from the selling and then buying only if it sounds cheap, which is all a bloody sad state of affairs indeed.

No you miss the point. What about 'give me 50 quid for this piece of stainless steel' ... and you know DAMN rightly that it isn't a piece of stainless steel at all but a G11 piece of Irish silver. That is fraud!!!!???!!!!! ... isn't it?

KNOWNLY BUYING AND PAYING UNDERVALUE

... it's the same thing with a 50 pound asking price for a table that is really worth 5000 .. or whatever, clearly worth more than a 'fair' profit. The redress and judgement will be made upon YOUR subsequent selling price and the relationship to the real market value.

And at the end of the day, Jon, be it legal or illegal it isn't bloody well ethical, is it!!??!!

As a collector who trades and sells to local stores, I would *never* do business with someone with your attitude!

I collect for fun - keeping the pieces I like the most, and selling the ones I get sick of, sometimes for a profit, sometimes not. Collecting is a fun hobby for me, and I enjoy the relationships I have with dealers, both as a buyer and a seller.

Of course, I understand that for a dealer or shop owner, it's their livihood and I *expect* them to make a profit when they buy something from me. On the other hand, I know that very few dealers are experts in every area, which is why if I feel I can get more somewhere else I will shop the item around, and I've never had a dealer suggest that I not do this! In fact, I recently had a dealer offer me a price on an item, then tell me that he thought I should go take it to a specialty store nearby first to see if they'd give me more money for it, which I did. Even though the second store far outbit the first, I will continue to bring items to both stores, and be even *more* likely to buy from the first shop, not because he is cheaper, but because he is honest enough to admit when he doesn't know what an item is worth, and fair enough to suggest I go elsewhere.

Someone who tried to hard-ass or pressure me, as you are clearly proposing doing, is just not pleasurable to deal with. Life's too short, and I wouldn't want to buy, sell, or deal with this type of person.

Anyway, if you believe that you are making a fair offer, what's the harm in sending a seller off to other shops? What are you so afraid of?

Huh?? ... your moral philosophy is only based upon the current law of the land as adopted in England? is that what you are saying, Jon?

If it isn't ethical Jon, as you have conceded above, then why worry yourself about the legality of it all?

If you believe it isn't ethical, then you must believe it is WRONG, regardless of what the law says or the law doesn't say. What precisely is your argument, Jon?

You're looking justification, Jon. Go pit your wits against another full time dealer, the auction houses or a serious collector and leave little old ladies and the ignorant to the likes of the Delboys of this world.

Well you are an intellect guy Jon, what do you suppose the 'law of the land' is? Do you REALLY and HONESTLY believe this is the land of the land??

' if you **get** the seller to ask a specific price for an item and it is subsequently worth a lot more, you cannot be prosecuted under Fair Trading laws (in the UK). Therefore she told me to **always get the seller** to name their price first and tell them it was for 'legal reasons'.

And ** 'tell them it was for 'legal reasons'.** !!??!! ... Do you practice what your (former) mentor teaches?

Jeez!! it makes a mockery of the word 'Fair Trading.'

Personally, I think the quoted suggestion is a crock of shit ... it is plainly deceptive, unethical and quite frankly, it borders on the criminal.

Things might be different where you are, but in my area someone with some decent pieces to sell will ask every dealer and his dog to go and look at their stuff. They then try and play one off against the other (Fred Smith offered me 100 pounds more for this......etc) Jon, if you gave your best price don't worry about where they go. It's the same in farming but usually the buyer says ' I get get it for less from so-in-so, if youwant me to buy yours BEND OVER.

One major problem is that the piece looses its novelty if all the trade has seen it and knows its rough purchase price. All the dealers talk to each other and we know what we've offered for the same piece. I recently bought a small table for 400 and the guy swore that another dealer offered him 600. I'd already spoken to the dealer concerned and he had only offered 250!!! Will you make a profit when and if you sell it? The seller lied not you.

I assure you that I don't use pressure. (Hopefully the thought of that has amused Charleen and will amuse Mike and Roy if they get to meet me!!) I know that my price is fair for that object and if the seller would like payment on the spot that's fine...if they don't that's fine. They can take it wherever they like, but please just don't ask me to buy it again. I'm not afraid of anything. I just can't bear time-wasting. Usually I will have hired a van, withdrawn a lot of cash and wasted a precious morning to go out and visit the seller (often miles in the countryside). If they don't take my offer, I am not going to put myself through all that time and expense again, especially knowing that if I am called back I have obviously offered top whack on the piece and therefore can't sell to another dealer within miles of me!! Tell the people this at the beginning. I'll come out , give you a fair price but I won't come out a second time. If you want me to buy it after you shop around you deliver.

If there are items I have no clue about, or I think are exceptional, I will tell them to take it to a local auction house. In fact I personally took a piece of jewellery I was offered and hadn't got a clue about into our local Phillips and it got 800 quid for the seller. I don't think my reputation can be too bad if people still bring things to sell to me many years after I closed the shop 8))) Jon

You sound like a very concerned buyer. Wanting to do the right thing. That is very nice to hear. BUT, people must realize that each and every time you travel to LOOK at something it costs you money and each time you go, it reduces the price you can pay for something, in order to make it worth your while. Once is okay after that someone other than you should pay for the extra money you are putting out. IMHO Doris

We are born naked, wet and hungry. Then things get worse.

Laura, You'd like our shop. We routinely send folks elsewhere if we don't think we can do well with an item. In fact I always try to suggest some other shop if I don't want the item. And if I offer a price it's a standing offer. If that table is worth $100.00 bucks to me on Monday why wouldn't it be worth that on Friday? The end result on this behavior? We have a ton of repeat customers, and at least 90% of our stock comes to us...often from those people we sent elsewhere before. Different styles for different folks. Tina

In 1998 there was a well-publicised case in which an American buyer was sued after he had made an extremely profitable purchase at a tag sale:
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles/ head0598.htm

Details of the subsequent court ruling can be found here:
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/buzz/buzz089.htm

Jane

Thank you for posting that article Jane, the ASA (American Society of Appraisers) forum had been following that case because of the effect it would have on the profession depending on the outcome. If it had gone the other way there would have been a stampede by appraisers to the insurance offices for errors and omissions coverage. Maybe now people will be willing to spend a few bucks to find their out if their daubs are worth anything ;~))

Interesting articles, Jane. However, I believe this is a completely difference set of circumstances from which I have been discussing with, Jon. The owners, in these two cases, employed the services of a professional third party in setting the value of the items beforehand. IMO, the valuers gave a bad service and acted unprofessional, and it was right to seek redress from the valuers.

But, IMO, this is not the same as a dealer clearly taking advantage of an uneducated member of the general public, getting them to set or pressurizing a price on the spur of the moment, not willing to offer and clearly withholding knowledgable information from the client and the question of 'getting' the private individual to sign some dubious 'legal' agreement, in order that the dealer can knowingly acquire goods for which they have clearly underpaid the true market value, all as implied in the suggestions from Jon's former mentor. I believe the dealer in this case is acting with premeditation.

Jane, in the UK, there have been court cases which came to an opposite decision from that of these USA courts. The J.F Herring picture, for example, when a UK provincial auction house failed to recognize, attribute and offered an undersold the painting via their auction. The paintings being bought by a dealer at the auction and subsequently sold in London at a sale room for a large sum of money. The provincial auction house was sued by the original owner, the UK court upheld the owner's case and the provincial sale room in the end had to pay redress to the owner, the difference between the two sale prices, about a 100K if I recall correctly, This was around the same time frame as the USA case, late 1980s.

They played hard, and pretty dirty. They were a rags to riches couple from the East End and totally ruthless. As far as I know they never did get into trouble with the law (and as he was an influential Mason, as are most of Thames Valley senior police officers, this may not be too surprising!) I did not condone their business practices (especially as I sold them many items at ridiculously low prices when we needed money) Their knowledge of antiques was phenomenal, however, and I learnt something practical from them whenever I could.

There was just *something* about 'B' that you couldn't help like. She was such a forceful person.....coarse...brash...but extrordinarily kind and friendly at the same time. The whole time I knew her she had cancer, but she never stopped working for a moment...I just admired her sheer guts.

It is so hard to explain in writing, but everyone somehow forgave the sharp practice....the bad language....simply because it was her...and maybe because she was going to die soon???

Anyway coming full circle, I guess I will never know if that particular practice of theirs was a 'crock of shit' or whether it had some validity in law at the time. It is not something I have ever done, but knowing 'B' I bet there was some truth in it, however unethical or immoral.

What I would ask is that the message is not associated with the messenger. I was simply querying the legality of a particular practice that I do not employ personally.

Finally, no-one has said what they would do when faced with an item priced for $5 at a garage/boot/rummage/jumble sale worth:

a.) 50 b.) 500 c.) 5000

Jon